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Тема: Пять Адских Могуществ (Прочитано 21489 раз) |
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Antrekot
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #15 В: 02/24/04 в 14:44:47 » |
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Если Вы считаете движение к этой цели всеобщим долгом - то быть вам меньшинством во втором. А если личным - милости просим в третье.
С уважением,
Антрекот
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on 02/24/04 в 14:44:47, Antrekot wrote:| Если Вы считаете движение к этой цели всеобщим долгом - то быть вам меньшинством во втором. |
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Антрекот, еще несколько столетий, и они окажутся там БОЛЬШИНСТВОМ. По общему количеству. Придется определение менять 
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #17 В: 02/24/04 в 15:24:17 » |
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Если они окажутся большинством, второе отдаст концы к вящему моему удовольствию.
Такое развитие событий всячески приветствуется.
Но не забудьте, что безусловных целей и отеческих попечителей у нас, увы, много...
С уважением,
Антрекот
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Эстера
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #18 В: 02/24/04 в 15:25:02 » |
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on 02/24/04 в 14:44:47, Antrekot wrote:| Если Вы считаете движение к этой цели всеобщим долгом - то быть вам меньшинством во втором. А если личным - милости просим в третье. |
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Что значит долг? Перед кем долг? Есть (недоказуемое) предположение, что вон там - благо. Большое такое. А уж каждому решать, идти туда или нет, но никто никого туда силком не погонит.
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| « Изменён в : 02/24/04 в 15:30:33 пользователем: Эстера » |
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Я знала давно, что я осенняя,
Что сердцу светлей, когда сад огнист,
Где все безогляднее, все забвеннее
Слетает, сгорая, последний лист...
А.К. Герцык
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on 02/24/04 в 15:24:17, Antrekot wrote:Но не забудьте, что безусловных целей и отеческих попечителей у нас, увы, много...
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Да, вы правы.  Я хотела сказать, "в христианской части второго". Но им , имхо, место в третьем См. последний мой пост на пред. странице.
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| « Изменён в : 02/24/04 в 15:45:55 пользователем: zipor » |
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Vladimir
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #20 В: 02/24/04 в 17:05:41 » |
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on 02/24/04 в 15:25:02, Эстера wrote:| Есть (недоказуемое) предположение, что вон там - благо. Большое такое. А уж каждому решать, идти туда или нет, но никто никого туда силком не погонит. |
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И плюс, если я правильно понимаю, недоказанное предположение, что это самое благо одно для всех, т.е. все его желающие придут в одну общую точку?
Тогда ИМНО третье могущество.
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Эстера
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #21 В: 02/25/04 в 11:14:47 » |
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on 02/24/04 в 17:05:41, Vladimir wrote:
И плюс, если я правильно понимаю, недоказанное предположение, что это самое благо одно для всех, т.е. все его желающие придут в одну общую точку?
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Да как бы это сказать... Не точка уж скорее, а кластер. Но один
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Я знала давно, что я осенняя,
Что сердцу светлей, когда сад огнист,
Где все безогляднее, все забвеннее
Слетает, сгорая, последний лист...
А.К. Герцык
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Vladimir
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #22 В: 02/25/04 в 12:09:04 » |
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Тогда точно Третье.
Я-то лично полагаю, что если что русскому хорошо, то не факт что немцу это смерть, но он сам лучше русского в этом вопросе разберется А что общего у всех будет - так это ИМНО из серии что лучше быть богатым и здоровым, чем бедным и больным  Но, к слову, вполне допускаю что "в пределе" все стремятся к одному кластеру, пусть и разными путями. Всякое может быть.
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Vladimir
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #23 В: 08/20/04 в 16:53:42 » |
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Я заметил, на форуме временами мелькают формулировки типа "Х по железу был из первого могущества" или "У по софту был из четвертого".
С софтом боле-менее ясно как разобраться: берешь описания и смотришь какое "ближе", а железо-то как вычислишь? По эмоциональным порывам?
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #24 В: 08/20/04 в 18:04:38 » |
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Да, по порывам, естественным реакциям.
С уважением,
Антрекот
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #25 В: 08/20/04 в 18:29:08 » |
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Тогда со мной тяжко: первый порыв идет исключительно от того частного кусочка информации, который дошел первым
У меня мозни практически с места в карьер начинают ситуацию рационализировать и описывать не в эмоциональных терминах, софт очень быстро включается
Интересно, можно ли составить "определитель" по базовым рациональным оценкам? Т.е., очень условно что-то вроде:
- Железные дороги это:
а) Очень круто, потому что ни у кого такой цацки нет, все передо мной будут преклоняться
б) Плохо, потому что не соответствует исконной традиции
в) Хорошо, быстрее можно товары перевозить
...
Можно ли сказать, что "железо" отвечает за постановку глобальных целей ("Хочу быть Самым Главным", "Хочу жить сытно и счастливо", "Хочу видеть все по моему плану",...), а софт - за методы достижения этих целей и, соответственно, эти цели может корректировать ввиду их полной несообразности между собой/текущему моменту и т.п.?
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Не уверена, что стоит... Имхо, такая классификация будет уж совсем грубой,а потому неприменимой в реальности.
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #27 В: 03/08/06 в 14:00:12 » |
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Гимли в своем ЖЖ сделал перевод текста на английский, кидаю сюда чтобы не пропал.
http://gimli-m.livejournal.com/21187.html
An expedition to Hades
While entrusting to the paper the truths that I have learned of the kingdom of Pluto, facing many dangers and taking tremendous risks, I cannot help but doubt whether I will be able to inspire even the smallest degree of confidence in my story in those who have never seen what I saw with my own eyes, for Hell is not at all what is believed about it.
I have not discovered it to be the place of remarkable torment and suffering in excess of what we already have seen; I never saw Devil or his Angels, nor anybody except for ordinary people in all ways alike to the ones we know. The only difference seems to be the fact that they cannot die a final death, but then again, that is not very important, since the existence of Hell proves that death is not final.
In other words, the Kingdom of Hell is very much alike to the Kingdom of Earth, and the only astonishing difference (which I will describe later) seems to clear eyes to be an improvement, and not a disadvantage.
Before discussing the wonders of Hell, or the peculiarities of its Interior, I should describe the Residents, or Denizens of Hell. You should know that in Hell you will soon find at least nine hundred and ninety-nine deceased out of each thousand that you knew of, and perhaps even more, since every single one of them also observes the majority of his acquaintances in Hell with him.
To each man in Hell, so to speak, is given according to his faith, for he must serve the one of Five Great Powers that corresponds to his nature and opinions. It turns out that, while people themselves think that they possess a multitude of opinions, each one of them falls firmly into one of the major Parties.
Men of the one such party have only one purpose: to manifest their bravery and achieve glory by committing heroic deeds. Anyone who does not wish to lead this life, full of dangers and bloodshed, in their eyes deserves scorn, and, furthermore, is destined by God to serve the strong and be amazed at their feats of valor. Such a man can be treated with some kindness, but only if he shows great Humility.
All men who held such opinions while they lived must now serve the First Power of Hell. Their colors are gold and sky-blue. Among them you will find many famous knights and princes of all Europe, and also many warriors that ruled in the East: mercenaries of Cairo and Deli, men who lived between Gung and Aurora, rulers of Buchara and other states, Alexander the Great and others of Macedon, antediluvian wise men of Chaldea, Bilgamish being the most noble-born of them, and many men even more ancient. Accordingly, the First Power is most proud of its primogeniture and nobility.
Men of the second Party are the ones who believed that humans ought to gather their efforts, deny individual lusts and wishes, and practice hard labor and perfect virtue under the guidance of a wise a patriarchal Law, which will direct them towards the greatest good, educate them as parents educate their children, separate kind and wicked men like shepherd separates his sheep, and will not suffer the hopelessly corrupt to live and continue spoiling all the others. This, second Power, is by far the greatest in numbers and artful generals, and would easily conquer Hell entirely, if not for the frequent quarrelling between its kings and barons that follow from the discourses on the true nature of the greatest good. For such is the difference of the true and superior virtue from ordinary virtues: it cannot coincide with what a sinful and weak man thinks the best for himself, and therefore all men will have different opinions and little understanding of it.
Because of that, the Second Power knew much civil strife, and each of its rulers now creates his own laws in his own dominion, eager to defend against the other Powers, but also fearful of feuding.
The colors of the Second power are red, black, and white, drawn differently. Some have a broken black cross on red and white, some ride under solid red flags. The names of these groups are hidden from me, but I was told that the first one consists of the most stubborn defenders, while the men of the last are recklessly brave in offense.
Among the major servants of this Second Power I should name all the kings and brotherhoods of China that worship Confucius, Mahomet and his Saracens with many other caliphs including Al-Moravids and Al-Mohads, all great Turks, Spartans and their king Leonid, many Tzars of Moskovia, and many decent Romans, starting with Augustus and Cato. Most of the good Frenchmen of our age, starting with all Kings and Princes of Bourbons, also joined this party, but all of our heretics and rebels had great doubts before joining.
The most bloodthirsty and fearsome servants of the Second are annamites, red Khmers that would not pity their own blood and flesh in the struggle for common cause; and also a Kumi-worshipping tribe from the far islands that is equally diligent in war and in study (a truly rare coincidence).
Many knights of Judea – in fact, almost all mentioned by history as true servants of god – belong to this Power together with their armies. Attracted by their names, many of the newer Christians also tried to join this Power, but many of them soon discovered, so to speak, that it is not all gold that glitters. Also, Judean heroes never gained much influence over the Second Power, for too many of their neighbors (abovementioned men of the broken black cross, Persian Ayatollahs and their ally Old Man of Assasins, and also their spiritual teachers), dislike them.
I could tell you much more of this remarkable Power, famous for its adherence to its strict laws (different in each dominion) and its cruelty towards prisoners of war, but enough about them.
In the Third Power, they believe that humans are joined together only for pleasure, the bounds of which are established by Oaths and Treaties. The only function of an Oath (or, indeed, of Great Power), is to allow them to safely fulfill their wishes and enjoy their pleasures, the only restriction being the avoidance of direct harm to others. Besides one king of Jerusalem, in this Power we also see many lawless kings of Babylon, Cairo and Alexandria, emperors of Persia with Xerxes and Darius among them, dark-skinned princes from faraway Malabar, and many others from almost all lands. Proportionally, most of them were born before the first coming of Christ, and its seems to me that the power of holy baptism is such that it can oppress lecherous thoughts even in those who are not directly familiar with it.
Of the later men, many rulers of Scandinavia, and an exceptionally great emperor of France (born one century after my time, and not noble by birth), and also Henry of Bourbons serve there. Of great Romans we can find Julius Caesar and Scipio, both of them in constant worry over having to fight against the majority of their former compatriots of the Second and Fifth Powers.
The Third Power is the weakest of all in numbers, and if the other Powers ever joined forced, they would be able to destroy it, but for the fact that in battle, all men of the Third are exceptionally fierce and determined: their devotion to sensual pleasures and personal pride makes them totally unable to feel fear or despair. Also, because of their devotion to mutual treaties, they would never betray their allegiance. Their colors are green and gold.
The Forth Power is almost of the same opinion on human nature as the Third, but its men believe that to pursue one’s pleasure there is no need to trouble oneself with Oaths and Treaties. Instead, the society driven by Self-Interest and spending and earning great sums of Money will, by itself, regulate, maintain and constantly improve the lives of its members.
Because of their great wealth, the men of Forth Power can usually win by employing gold and gunpowder, and almost no bravery. The weaknesses of the Forth are its exceptional cowardice, and inability to admit to defeat in any small thing which leads them to lie to themselves more often than necessary. They get used to Lies and start forgetting Truth, especially if Lies are more profitable. Their colors are Golden and White, and most of the later nations on both sides of the Ocean fall into the Forth Power.
The Fifth Power governs itself in the simplest possible manner: by the belief that the only natural activity for humans is to deceive, rob and oppress each other, and whoever achieves the greatest personal success is the most virtuous. Many men of Brazil, New Spain, African and Moscovian countries of later times joined the Fifth.
This Power would be very weak, if it was not constantly reinforced by the people who believe that their whole country should live in just such a manner, that is, by oppression of the others, while justice and peace should be reserved only for inner use by its citizens.
Generally speaking, this is a different point of view, but the two parts of the Fifth find many reasons to co-operate with each other. After all, both of them know that it is safer to commit atrocities in large groups, rather than alone.
Many barbarian tribes, great sea-kings of the North, Athens and Carthage fall into the Fifth. While these brave men fight, their weaker comrades gather intelligence and means for their operations. The Fifth Power does not bother with heraldic colors, and the few flags they have are so spoiled by dirt and blood, that nobody can tell what they depict.
The laws of Hell are such, that the actual articulate opinions that a person had all his life may not matter at all, for it is possible to have misconceptions about one’s own opinion, and be very surprised to find oneself under the strange banners. For example, many good Christian generals, famous for their actions against rebels and infidels, find themselves in the Third, under its symbols of Baal, Astarte and many other indecent images.
There was much amusement in Hell on another occasion. There was a certain literate German, who announced himself a re-incarnation, or perhaps a twin (or some such philosophical nonsense) of the Persian Zoroaster and spent his life alternating between preaching for the First and for the Second. After his first death, he became one of the false prophets (whoever heard of true prophets in Hell?), naturally, of the Second Power and discovered, to much amazement, that the true Zoroaster has all his life been a mighty servant of the Third. It is said that the poor German, who despises all the things the Third stands for, has gone completely mad from grie. Now, I personally don't believe it, because it seem that he was even more mad in life.
It is very surprising how little importance is given to the difference of faith and language in Hell. In every Power there are people of very different ilk and custom, but, despite the abovementioned peculiarities of the Second, there is no feuding. Also, the formerly related (by blood and custom) who now belong to different Powers, feel it necessary to start fighting against their brothers and kin as soon as they are told that in life they wished for things more different than fire and water, and equal only in their unattainability.
At times they cry and suffer, thus fulfilling the true object of Hell. But there are also others, who constantly rejoice at the opportunity to harm the enemy, whom in life they could not touch because of the common Oath or Treaty.
After yet another look we can notice some similarities between the Powers, bridging the gaps between them.
Both First and Second Powers believe that there are good men, and there are wicked men, and that the best men are also the best fighters.
The Third and the Fourth agree on the necessity of comfort and pleasure.
The Fourth and the Fifth value freedom and neglect binding oaths.
With some effort, each pair can find a common cause and join together against the others, but the subtle nature of Hell will not allow them to forget their differences.
The First Power believes all others to be cowards, while the others see them as the great order of ravishers.
The Second Power sees all men as ignorant, and is seen by others as raving mad.
The Third accuses the others of constant lies, and is accused of unbounded lechery.
The Fourth sees all others as cruelly strict and conservative, and is hated for its bigotry.
The Fifth sees all others as weak-hearted and stupid, and is perceived as the nest of dishonest criminals.
A total outsider, can, however, see them all as somewhat good and somewhat bad, each in its own manner.
…
(the rest of the text was destroyed, except for a part of the signature)
(Signed: … ian, first Marshal of France).
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Re: Пять Адских Могуществ
« Ответить #29 В: 03/08/06 в 17:47:12 » |
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Если "...ян, маршал Франции" это всё-таки д'Артаньян, то он будет d'Artagnan и не может заканчиваться на -ian.
А Гимли - молодец!
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